I find that many of the characteristics that creationists frequently apply to their god (I’ll be referring to the god, Yahweh) are contradictory and self cancelling. Creationists assert that their god has no beginning, no end, is an uncaused cause, and cannot be scientifically identified or examined as it exist outside of scientific observation because of it’s supernatural properties. They claim to know specific characteristics of Yahweh, to talk to Yahweh, to hear Yahweh speak to them, to know what Yahweh approves and disapproves of, etc… Each one of these claims raises a red flag which I cannot allow myself not to question and address.
God’s (Yahweh’s) infiniteness?
If Yahweh has no beginning, no end, is within everything, is infinite, and has no boundaries, then Yahweh must be without edges, without contrast, and without edges to outline it, without contrast to distinguish it, Yahweh must be formless, and if Yahweh is formless then how can it be recognized, characterized, personified, and “known” at any extent at all? It cannot. This characteristic of infiniteness that creationists apply to Yahweh actually cancels out Yahweh’s existence. We can just as easily say that everything is as it is without being possessed by this supernatural deity. Which leads me to the next questionable characteristic of Yahweh, its curious exemption from scientific observation through its “supernaturalness.”
God’s (Yahweh’s) supernaturalness?
As I explained above, god’s (Yahweh’s) infiniteness attribute cancels itself out, but not only does this infiniteness attribute cancel itself out but it also conflicts and contradicts with another characteristic assigned to god, it’s so called freedom from scientific examination. If god is supernatural and exist outside of what we understand as natural, and therefore cannot be observed by science, then how is it that Yahweh can be called infinite? Such infiniteness must also include that which is natural and therefore should be examinable by science. If Yahweh is claimed to intervene, participate, and embody the universe, planets, life, people, etc… then Yahweh must also be natural. Also, if Yahweh existed along with it’s supernaturalness, then it’s supernaturalness would not be supernatural, it would just be natural, and if it is natural then it must be subject to scientific examination. One cannot claim that Yahweh is supernatural and then also claim to observe Yahweh in our natural environment and to “know” Yahweh exist. Any supernatural being that can be observed cannot actually be described as supernatural, so were there supernatural beings, one would not be able to know about them.
God (Yahweh), an uncaused cause?
Following the contradiction of god’s infiniteness with how one could possibly “know” any specific characteristics of god , how is it that anyone could “know” that god is an uncaused cause? This characteristic often pops up when a creationist is debating how the universe came to be. Creationists of course say that god (Yahweh) created the universe, and the opposition may cite the big bang as to how the universe came to be. Both arguments eventually come down to how could have “something” of came from “nothing.” In which case I am currently researching zero point energy or vacuum energy as a potential contributor to the big bang. Creationists state that god created the universe, in which the next natural question of the opposition is, “then what created god?” In which case the creationist will cite that god is an “uncaused caused,” always been there, always will be, has no beginning nor end. And here you see the argument is circular as it goes back to god’s characteristic of infiniteness where as I explained earlier that this characteristic actually cancels god completely out of the picture.
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Bee in your bonnet? *Grin*
Anok’s last blog post..Updates, with details.
maybe the paradox is that the concept of a creator attracts attention it doesn’t deserve?
Brad4d’s last blog post..loser denial
A fool says in his heart, there is no God.
Brad4d, I agree. I’m disappointed in how much time has been wasted on the concept.
Yahoo, why be anonymous? Anyways, take care! “But whomsoever shall say ‘Thou fool’ shall be in danger of hell fire.” (Matthew 5:22)
No one knows much on how He (God) looks like. So, he probably has no definite shape and bla bla bla. But he is known through God the Son, and characterized and personified that way. When it says God is infinate, it means his power. So, whether or not he has a shape or not, I’ll tell ya when I come back from the dead. By the way, I love that cherry blossom poem.:)
It is not a contradiction to be superhuman, right? Superman can be seen and touched, right? Superman can catch you when you fall off a building, right? He can even zap you with his X-Ray vision, right? He is super (meaning beyond) + human. But he looks like a man, Clark Kent. When he isn’t wearing his flashy costume, Superman behaves just like the rest of us humans–even acting weaker than he really is so he does not hurt us. So his superhuman ability also includes the range of human abilities we also have.
Super + human = Super[hu]man, right?
Along the same lines, I could assert that God can be observed. He is over all, through all, and in all, as some believe. But not only could He pervade the very fabric of existence, what if He goes on, right past the edge of what we can see, out into realms and dimensions we can neither touch nor experience with our instruments? What if back beyond the fold of the Cosmos, past the edge of our 3.5-dimensional existence, things could go on farther (or, for that matter, further)?
Or is the rest of the very Earth on which you live simply gone because you cannot see it all at once? Is the rest of the Galaxy gone simply because we cannot observe it all (gravitational lensing being besides the point) at once?
Beyond the edge of what we know, I could argue that God exists, and yet still, I could argue that the locus of known space and time that we occupy could also contain Him. Just like Super+man’s abilities are beyond human but not self-contradictory, and also inclusive of human abilities, so Super+natural’s abiliities can be beyond nature, yet still include nature and natural abilities.
Your second premise is easier to disprove when we take a locus of points on the X-axis, residing in this domain [-1, +1]. If we take a similar locus of points on the X-axis, also residing in this domain: (-100, +100), then will it not include (-1, 1) while also surpassing it at the very same time?
Otherwise, there would not be one interval but two: (-100, -1] and [+1, +100)! This would suggest that "supernatural" abilities reach beyond our abilities, yet do not include them. This would be a fallacy, primarily because an infinitely powerful being would be able to do anything, right? From creating worlds to sharpening pencils, right?
I will use pairs of lower case "o" letters to indicate infinity (oo). Thus, God could exist and be infinite--passing along the domain of X [-oo, +oo], the range of Y [-oo, +oo], the threshold of Z [-oo, +oo], the continuum of Theta (we’re talking time now) [-oo, +oo], and the realm of Gamma (assuming a dimension beyond time) [-oo, +oo], all of which could still include locus of all observeable spacetime, which may or may not be infinite, but of which we have only experienced a finite amount.
God could fully occupy all known, unknown, and barely-known dimensions and yet still pervade our own. Within which, He could even communicate with us, if He so desires.
But mere proof is not enough. The Israelites had proof, but a generation still died in the desert wanderings (book of Numbers).
Chriss last blog post..What’s Your Load?
Dude, Travis!! Your name is my name too!
Looks like there’s a couple Travis’ on here.
I like your work as well, you’re a very creative person! I’m a Christian. But have no worries, I’m not at all offended. (What’s up with Yahoo? Where’s the love?) I personally believe that if God is real, and that if I truly believe He created this universe, then God and this universe should be explainable in unison, scientifically. I don’t believe there should be a disconnect between the supernatural and science.
I’ve personally seen and experienced enough scientific evidence of His existence and desire to be involved in my life.
I think if someone came from BCE and saw computers and air planes that they would think it was all just supernatural. But it’s scientific achievement.
Anyway, I like your website and I’ll probably be stopping by periodically.
Keep on keepin’ on!!!