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Proving the Existence of Truth

If it is true that everything is a lie (an illusion), then the statement contradicts itself by being true, thus making the statement false by involuntarily proving truths existence.
If it is false that everything is a lie (an illusion), then it again simply proves truths existence.
Either way, Truth is proven to exist.

In life, “the illusion” is often prettied up and designed to sell, and at that, at discount prices. People bite at the bargain, It seems easier and cheaper, so their off with their bargain, and go down this long winding road until they eventually are lost, and finally reach a dead end, the end of “the illusion.” They are then forced to turn back, and back track to where the road originally split, sometimes taking them what seems like an eternity just to get back to that fork. Once, they are there. Then, they take that road, yes, the one less traveled, the one that leads them to the way of enlightenment, the way they wish they would have traveled to begin with, the way their hearts originally pointed to, the way of the truth.

35 Comments

  1. For “everything is a lie (an illusion)” to be true, then truth must also be a lie (an illusion).

    - words don’t necessarily reflect or determine the existence of something.
    - Can you define what true is?
    - Could you then present an example of something that is true for all eternity? How could you prove this? (Please don’t use a definition such as “My name is Travis”- We would need to get into the whole arguement of whether you exist separate from everything else etc etc..ie unproveable stuff:-)
    Cheers
    Glenn

  2. Glen,

    If “everything is a lie (an illusion)” is true, thus making truth also a lie, then that makes the statement a lie. If the statement is a lie, then it means that everything isn’t a lie (an illusion), once again showing evidence of truths existence.

    True that words do not necessarily reflect or determine the existence of something, as I have posted before here, here, and here.

    Whats true this moment, may not be true the next moment. I am proving that Truth exist, not that truth doesn’t change over time.

  3. Intuitionism, rejecting formalism, holds that words and formulas have significance only as a reflection of activity in the mind. Thus a theorem has meaning only if it represents a mental construction of a mathematical or logical entity. Kurt Gödel, in the 1930s, brought forth his “incompleteness theorem,” which demonstrates that an infinitude of propositions that are underivable from the axioms of a system nevertheless have the value of true within the system. Neither these Gödel Propositions, as they are called, nor their negations are provable. One implication for the modern logician is that Aristotle’s law of the excluded middle (either A or not A) is neither so simple nor so self-evident as it once seemed. – Interestingly, as you may be aware, Chinese philosophy allows a third alternative- neither A nor notA
    The “truth” you refer to in your argument is merely a measure of validity as used in logic and has no inherent relationship with existence. However as a mental construct for use in debating logic it could be said to exist. In the sense that it does not exist physically it exists no more or less than any idea. Do you think that anything can be made to exist by mere definition?

    Cheers
    Glenn

  4. Excellent points, Glenn. Again, I am not proposing that truth exist by mere definition. As we both know that words representations and counseling to and from the truth are rarely if ever adequate delegates.

    You said, “The “truth” you refer to in your argument is merely a measure of validity as used in logic and has no inherent relationship with existence. However as a mental construct for use in debating logic it could be said to exist.”
    So you’re saying truth does exist or it doesn’t? You said it has no inherent relationship with existence, so how could it be said to exist as a mental construct?

    So it does exist or it doesn’t? Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t?

    To come clear, I think the next question is. “What is existence? What is “is”? In order for something to exist, must it be in physical form? Does an idea exist? What space does emptiness occupy?

    I can agree that the “truth” is a measure of validity, but I cannot yet agree that it has no relationship with existence without first knowing exactly what existence consist of.

    Note: Keep in mind that I raise these subjects up for the purpose of debate and questioning to come closer to a better “understanding.” I started the subject in a direction but it doesn’t necessarily mean I have chosen this direction as my belief. I appreciate all who participate. I would assume that we are all mature enough to know that this debate is not personal, but merely in the cause of having a better “understanding.” Glenn, I’m glad you are participating, and I invite all others who may be holding their tongue. I am not claiming to be an expert on these things because I am not; I am just trying to come closer to knowing the way.

  5. Greg

    Travis, I am trying to better understand what you mean. Are you defining True as the ever constant? Then by stating that it’s the ever constant by proving if lies exist truth must also exist because they are constant opposites? By this idea we would have to define each Truth and Lies; if you are referring to truth as always existing and lies as being truth due to their constant existence. It doesn’t prove truth to be a lie. It only shows the existence of two opposites. Although the thought might be that lies can be truth or truth can be lies. By the understood definition it is impossible. That would be the same as parallel lines crossing.

  6. I’m not proving truth to be a lie. Quite the opposite. I’m proving that truth exist.

    I am also not defining True as the ever constant. All I know to be constant is “change.” As I noted above, What’s true this moment may not always be true the next.

    Parallel lines are only parallel in relation to each other. If you do not relate one to the other, they are simply individual lines.

  7. Greg

    How does truth change? To my limited knowledge Truth is always True. Lies are ever changing. However from the perspective of shelf; my opinion of what is true may change, but that’s an opinion; not Truth. Pure truth is always true. As an example of truth. Opposition in all things is always True.

    I think I understand what you ment now. Its more along the lines of If truth exists how does one be true to oneself.

  8. Greg, take for example a snowflake that just a moment ago fell from the sky, and now it has landed in the palm of your hand. A moment ago, it would be true that the snowflake has not touched your hand. However, now that it lays in your hand, it would no longer be true that the snowflake has not touched your hand. Therefore, what was true a moment ago about the snowflake not having touched your hand was no longer true the moment it touched your hand. You see, what was true one moment, was not true the next. It changed.

  9. Eve

    I’ve been meaning to tell you, Travis, as I’m sure you are well aware, and this should be obvious to anyone who has read the poem, this blog has a hint of an allusion to “The Road Not Taken” by Robert Frost.

    Interesting arguments I’d like to take a closer look at soon, btw. That last one (I did take the chance to read) is classic!

  10. Eve, due to your suggestion I went and checked out that poem, “The Road Not Taken,” by Robert Frost and I can see the similarities you are referencing. Though, I can assure you that what I wrote here was not directly influenced by that poem. Actually, if my memory is not mistaken, I may have just read it for the first time. However, I have heard the phrase “the road less traveled” before, but did not know it’s original source. I just happened to use those combination of words as they were accurate to the message I was attempting to convey.

    Of course I have heard and learned of Robert Frost, being a most highly regarded poet and such, but unfortunately I have not read his works.

    Also, this entry was not intended to be a poem, ( though I suppose it could be, if interpreted as so,) but rather just my thoughts.

  11. Eve, Thank you. Yes, if you havn’t noticed, I tend to approach many arguments using a socratic method. I find this method quite effective in sorting out the facts from the fiction.

  12. Paul

    Truth is one of many words that are used to point to what is wordless. Truth is all. Truth is existence and need not prove it for truth precludes there being another. This doesn’t mean we are all one or we are all the same truth or anything of the sort. This means there is no “we”. Truth is spirit, actuality, love, being, totality, consciousness and so on, use whatever word you take delight in using to point to what is ineffable. Even the word ineffable is a pointer. Truth never struggles with a so-called human realm for there is no such realm. Truth is changeless, boundless, formless, timeless, indivisible, unquantifiable and unconditional. Only the infinite mind of truth can know the infinite mind that is truth. Truth is NOW and not a “was” or a “will be”. NOW is not a point in time, NOW is timeless. Truth is the message and the messenger, as truth transparently authenticates and illuminates truth ceaselessly. Only fact is fact and truth is fact.

  13. Paul, way to go.

    I see the sun shining brighter than the words I’ve written down suggesting its light. Ah, a radiance lost in translation.

  14. Paul

    Travis,

    Truth is radiance and being that truth is all it can never be lost. Truth is changeless, timeless, indivisible and unconditional and thus the radiance that is truth is never less than what it is now. Truth is all and can neither be added to nor substract from. This is the grace of the very force that is reading these words now. Truth is actuality. Actuality is not in a past or yet to come in a future. Actuality is NOW. Now is not a point between past and future, now is timeless. Past and future are total fiction through and through. Never start with fiction, a finite or dualistic perspective attempting to arrive at truth. This is starting as non-existence and thus you do nothing and go nowhere. Start with what you are because it’s all you can really do. Start with truth, as this is what you are. Truth is not busying trying to become truth. Truth is totality now.
    Surely only truth can transparently authenticate and illuminate truth. In truth, indeed as truth you cannot be other than truth that you are being now and forever as now is forever.

    Truth or spirit if you will, knows nothing of personal or human sense. Truth knows truth as all. The very composition of existence is spirit. What exist now has always existed and will always exist. What doesn’t exist now never existed and never will exist. Spirit is the conceiver and the perceiver and all that is conceived is included in spirit as ideas. Ideas or things have no spirit in them yet they are included in spirit. They have no life in them but they are included in life. There’s not a little bit of spirit over here and a little bit over there, as spirit is indivisible and never relegates any spirit to an idea. Not one idea whether a planet, a cloud, an ocean or grain of sand is more or less important than another. Spirit is ALL.

    This all points to what is utterly wordless.

  15. Ahh, this is amazing. I’m feeling inspired by your comments. I think that the only truth is existence. I find that the most beautiful thing is that I exist. Any processes in my brain which try to understand why or how I exist, or what else exists, is impure in comparison to my appreciation of the fact that I exist. The concept of truth is one of these processes. But the difference between truth and other terms (e.g. table) is that truth has no obvious signifier… it always seems to evade our perception (like nothingness). It’s improtant to clarify the difference between the truth [noun] and how something can be true [adjective]). I suppose this is just a long winded roundabout way of saying I agree that truth reprasents something that is wordless, by definition. Which is kinda a paradox. I think it’s what I experience when I turn off the processor in my head that’s trying to make sense of and organise everything. Kinda like meditation I suppose.
    I’m pretty new to putting this kinda stuff into words so forgive me if what I’ve said is obvious or doesn’t make much sense! I’m doing a physics degree so I am used to dealing with numbers! hehe

    Thanks for the words of wisdom!
    Aaron.

  16. Epirus on Fire

    Truth is nothing and is something too.
    Lies are nothing and are something too.

    Contradiction is the way of reason. If you are not contradicting yourself, you have not reasoned fully (and that usually means that there are more questions to be answered). Since there always is unanswered questions, reason has no finality, and therefore no “final answer” or “truth” (if we can define truth this way).

    Reason is a very powerful weapon and mental cage that holds you back as well: depending how you use it! If reason gave final answers, there would be NO misunderstandings and partitions of societies, religions, politics, ways of life in the world, which all of them have led to wars, famine, and death sometime in our history (when these divisions were felt really strongly by the people that were part of the sides taken).

    Reason tells you that Death is bad because it takes your Life away, but so IT does when it tells you that if there was no Death, you would not be able to recognise Life, and therefore Death “gives” you Life, and since it is Life “giving” it should be good. However Life is bad at the same time because it “gives” you Death by the same process, and therefore if Death is bad, Life is Death “giving” and therefore it’s bad… WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYONE GET THEMSELVES INTO THIS? REASON IS A PARADOX and that’s OK! That’s the way it should be: its natural state.

    To someone that knows this, reason becomes his/her most powerful weapon, and he/she is able to manipulate masses of people that are still “slaves” of reason and the discovery of its TRUTH (one final answer). To these “slaves” instead, Reason remains just a cage, that forces them into running a Rat Race, until A SAVIOUR like me comes along and turns on the lights for them to see!

    LOL… just a little brainstorming.

    I don’t have to find the “truth”, or the “lie”… I just float along w reason as my sword.

  17. very interesting food for thought epirus.

    here’s a quote my friend sent me:

    “paradox in the beauty,
    beauty is the paradox”

    dunno where it’s from but just thought it was nice :)

    Aaron.

  18. It is quite simple to ” give an example of something that is true for all eternity . ” This is a ststement of truth that for eternity can not change . Go any distance of time and/or space into either the past or the future , any distance what-so-ever , and make the statement ” Life Happens ” and that statement will be and remain ,forever , the truth .
    Even if no life is in existance at whatever point one should choose to venture , it is an unchangable truth that life happens . As we know that for a certantity life does indeed happen , it matters not wether that event has occurred in the most remote of timelines be that in the distant past or of a futuristic nature . Forever a statement of absolute truth ; LIFE HAPPENS .
    The same can be said of the statement , “DEATH HAPPENS ” . It matters not in the least wether death once happened 100 billion years ago or that it will happen 100 billion years from now . Death , like life is a truth that has proven itself in the lives of men thus the statement that death ( or life ) is an unchangable given of truth . One may argue that life is of an eternal nature and thus death actually does not happen but all one need declare to make a statement of unchangable truth is ” physical death happens “.
    There are numerous proven truths that can easily be acertained . All one need do is THINK . That ,incidentally is another eternal truth ; “THOUGHT HAPPENS ” Also it could and very much should be noted that truth occurs wether man is aware of given facts pertaining to the existance of a litany of unknown truths or not .
    In essence gentlemen it is ridiculous to debate the existance of truth . One may as well debate the existance of their very own self ; which some , by-the-way , do .
    Here are a few eternal truths , any of which prove the existance of truth thus confirming that absolute truth does indeed exist wether man concedes so or not .
    Gravity happens
    Light happens
    Darkness happens
    Sight happens
    Blindness happens
    Time happens
    Change happens
    Love happens
    etc. etc. etc.
    It is a small mind indeed that can not grasp the “notion” that unchangable facts or truth has , can , does and will happen outside of the human experience or that the existance of absolute truth can be debated away . Again the reality of even one absolute truth proves that absolute truth is .

    0

  19. Kyle

    I am not disagreeing with your statement, but I am curious about its wording. To say that death happens at all times brings up the subject of has life always happened? That would be suggesting that life has always existed and will continue to do so. I cannot argue with your definition of truth though from a logical standpoint, but a statistical standpoint is different. There are infinitely many possibilities in existence, meaning that nothing is absolute. The small chance that sight quits happening or love quits happening is always possible, and the same is with life and death. Truth is just a perception of how each individual views things. If a child was raised believing that black is black and another was raised to believe that black is blue, then what is the truth to them? If you took a black ball and told the first child that it was black he would consider it the truth, but if you did the same to the other child he would perceive you as a liar. This then branches into belief. If I truly believe that 2+2=5 then if you were to tell me 2+2=4 i would think that it was a lie. So then the vicious cycle repeats itself by going back to searching for absolutes such as black will always be black, but that is nothing more than the association of words to a thing.

    Andre Gide:

    “Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.”

    But then if I say that all those that claim to know what the definition truth is are liars, then did i not just create a truth….

  20. Travis Morgan (Author)

    Kyle said, “nothing is absolute”

    If nothing is absolute, then “nothing is absolute” cannot be absolute, therefore if “nothing is absolute” is not absolute then something can be absolute.

    Kyle said, “Truth is just a perception of how each individual views things.”

    I don’t think so. “Truth” is not a perception of how each individual views things. Rather, each individual has a perception of Truth. The truth itself is not a perception, our individual views of Truth are.

    Kyle said, “If a child was raised believing that black is black and another was raised to believe that black is blue, then what is the truth to them?.”

    This is not different truths. this is semantics, language. Simply different verbal representatives of the same color. For example, there are as many ways to say “apple” as there are different languages, yet all them represent the reality of one single same fruit.

    Kyle said, “If I truly believe that 2+2=5 then if you were to tell me 2+2=4 i would think that it was a lie.”

    “Truly believing” is just “believing” and isn’t the same as “knowing.” Just because you truly believe their are fairies, and I believe there are not, does not make two different truths. Either fairies exist or the don’t. One of us is simply wrong.

  21. No matter what one may choose to call black ; be that black , blue , dgr13 , hat or whatever , the fact is that black exists . A name change does not negate the reality of the existance of anything .
    Also , even if life only happened for an extremely brief period of time ; say a nano second , the fact that there ever was or ever will be life makes the statement ” life happens ” a fact of absolute truth . It matters not that any be aware of that fact . This as the existance of anything , tangible or otherwise does not depend upon the awareness of anyone or anything in order that it exist .
    It matters not that any creature percieve truth in order that truth exist . Wether one percieve you as a liar or not has no bearing upon the existance of fact . Misconception does not negate truth . And too , wether one believe it or not , truth is not established upon the foundation ( or lack there-of ) of rational perception , i.e. belief .

  22. Not to be disagreeable but I take exception to a statement that Kyle wrote . He wrote ” There are infinetely many possibilities in existance , meaning that nothing is absolute . ” That is absolutely and utterly ridiculous . Nowhwere can it be proven or even founded that ” there are infinetely many possibilities in existance ” . Any mathematician will tell you otherwise .
    There are indeed many routes to get to any given destination but that in no way alters the destination . You appear to not understand that perception is what you are labeling as truth . If one percieves that there are infinetly many possibilities in existance then I ask you where do these infinite possibilities exist . Only in the mind of man . Perception . Perception does not prescribe truth . Perception does not create truth . Perception does not alter truth and perception does not negate truth . Reguardless of how it is percieved or covered , truth is . Logical or statistical , it makes no difference . Truth does not exist in the realm of the Human mind . Truth exists outside of that arena . The Human mind never-the-less has the ability to percieve truth or to attempt to debate away the existance there-of . To deny the existance of truth upon the hollow shell of such thesis is only to cloud ones own mind . Why any would attempt to do so is beyond me . Get over it and accept it that truth indeed does exist . Your life will be less complicated .

  23. in these comments and opinion’s of many other’s think of life as this towards these remarks of “the truth” in retrospect the truth and the lie are the yin and yang of each other correct but then i ask when searching for a truth you have to ask are selves is the truth what we are looking for are denying is the truth we want in this life for instance if you live in a war country which on the most part every country is are you not in a trance from what that country decides to hide from you so then ask your self this when you are to find that truth is it the truth of existence are merely an existence of human nature of its evolvement in fire of violence

    thats one but then i ask i you were to awaken your mind from that mind state and lies deception and so on were would you begin next you begin o study a higher meaning in what you look towards to in that violent life style in other words peace but would this be the truth when were thought that war and peace must exist then your finally question is what is truth is it anything and just like anything i choose to read in this column its nothing more then just a word as so the word “is” Terry

    in my final words for those who care stop talking and start doing for this truth we all look so deeply for and run from is no further then yourself my dear friends

  24. Becky N

    You never consider that there may be only a few truths…instead you group everything together…all or nothing. Truth is a matter of perspective–the perspective of people. And because people do not completely agree on any one matter, truth is an illusion.

  25. Becky N

    And anyway, why does there have to be truth? Why does there have to be a reason? It’s interesting to see if there is one, but how important is it? Does is give people a reason to live–if so, why are people afraid to die?

  26. Ghost

    OK to thought of death my fair lady is this it’s not that any one is afraid of death no its that people are afraid of the fact that thy will “go” and honestly leave nothing some is money other, is a legacy this is why so many people go out do things that make them feel a little or maybe a lot better inside about there so called existence thats what the fear is

    no one another scale depending on your belief death is n option that you have in life I don’t know how to explain this any further then that

  27. Michael

    Becky it does not matter if even only one truth were to exist . Correct me if I am wrong but the subject of this discussion is “Proving The Existance of Truth ” If even one truth can be proven to exist that is indeed ample proof that truth does exist . That has been proven , even by your own admission , case closed .
    You ask “…why does there have to be truth ” . I do not comprehend the significance of such a question . You may as well ask “why does there have to be gravity ?” or “why does there have to be heat ?” or why does there have to be electromotive force ” or “why does there have to be life ?” ; incidentally those things are proven truths . They exist . They existed long before the human mind had the ability to comprehend them on an intellectual level. If all human-kind were to cease to exist these and countless other truths would still exist .
    It is truly benificial to the human creature to recognize the reality of truth . This as ignorance has no redeeming value and reguardless of the lofty ambitions of some who consider themselves intellectually superior ,to attempt to debate away the existance of fact is indication of intellectual incompetence . And that’s the TRUTH !

  28. Michael

    Becky , come on . You are smarter than the statements that you have made . You say that truth is a matter of perspective , perspective of the people . That is the most ridiculous bunch of hogwash that I have ever heard . Say that the people of Indonesia and surrounding countries had never seen a Tsunami and because of their lack of perspective concerning the truth of such an entity declared unto themselves ” There is no tsunami for we have never percieved of such a thing .” Would their lack of perception negate the existance of tsunamis ? Would their perception (or lack there-of) have prevented the tidal wave ? Heavens no it would not have . The same could be said of volcanoes , look at Pomei . The people percieved no danger . Truth is ,danger was reality ,reality is truth . Their perception or lack there-of did not negate the danger and it cost many their lives . For untold centuries man believed (percieved) the world to be flat . That was the perception of the people . Was that perception truth ? Get real , maybe you are simply argumentative but your argument is entirely lame .
    Truth is an illusion ? Come on , none but the most foolish would embrace such nonesense . That tsunami was truth , the only illusions are the ones that deny fact . Vesuvius was truth , the illusion was that there was no danger . The same can be said of all truth . Truth indeed does exist , denying that fact is the illusion . It can be quite costly .
    I have personally known many people from the north-east
    ( U.S. ) who percieved that the south had no cities and was basically a land of plantations where black people are commonly and routinely debased and abused . That was their perception but indeed is extremely far from the truth .
    I also have known many southerners who percieved that all northerners were rude and obnoxious know-it -alls . That is also a point of perception and is not true . Perception does not prescribe truth , Becky . Perception does not negate truth , Becky . Perception either acknowledges truth or challenges it . Mere perception never creates truth . That is utterly and absolutely impossible and any mathematician worth their salt will back up that statement . So will any geologist . Or astronomer . Or engineer . Or scientist . Perception can only acknowledge or challenge truth , it can not create it . By challenging it , perception can ignore truth .Not wise .

  29. I believe any and all truth is personal, individually experienced as a conscious awarence of self like your finger print, meaning there is nothing untrue, there are things that go against the laws of physics but it doesn’t make them untrue. Defining truth or any thing is only a matter of observing (The affect) it does or doesn’t have on any one or any thing, and yet the thing observed is effected by the observer. Example, If a a bee strings you it’s true it leaves a mark it swells up it hurts it’s really there. Everything that is not the truth will be not true by it’s example just like the truth in a court of Law no one is guilty or not guilty UNTIL till it is proven beyound a shadow of a doubt and that can only be done by showing evedance to and of the facts that make it truth or lie. What is the truth of any Wisdom if it is not first established in the Difining moment of it’s inspirtation and grounded in the fertility of Love where it rest in the now where everything begins, So truth to me is NOW, after that it becomes history and we all know what history does, it talks about what has already happened and thats the truth so help me God. Abelief is a thought that we keep pracitising.

  30. adam

    well truth and existence are similar in ways, existence points to the one or ones involving life, truth as it is known is fluid for one. a truth of ones life maybe but to another that same truth may not implied for existence is a path of sorts a individual must face. for the facts of life there own existence is unique and it is not something that you can define in just words it is a feeling a state of mind one must understand in order to move forward in there own path. life is never simple hardships and trials will a cur it is the choices one make as a individual that defines ones self that proves their own existence for that is life. existence is and there for ever will be a mystery until we except the fact that not everything in life is understandable. to be aware and to know that life is and always shall be a question in ones own mind is the true fact of existence. from that point to question ones existence is in it self a part of a life. existence and truth go had in had for truth is what one searches for and existence. it is and always shall be a mystery.

  31. ?

    There’s 3 absolute truths we can all agree on;

    1. Something exists.
    2. Something is changing.
    3. Something will always exist.

    / Cogito Ergo Nom

  32. Ghst

    Well as the symbol formerly known as Cogito Ergo Nom (or no one we know) has explained, yes there has been three (though I see I can only agree with two out of the three) “truths” within our topic that Travis has brought up so openly.

    For there to be a truth

    A) Something has to exists

    To explain – Well with nothing around then truth matters not correct? When we have minds or things that ponder amongst us we begin to wonder what is truth causing exploration of ideas and thoughts that begin to flourish through out life.

    which there in turns to

    B) Something is changing

    Well self explanatory, with all the ideas of truth so many will begin to ponder and wonder and test ideas and theory’s that lead to flaws that must be study and later perfected in the eyes on the individual and their idea of perfection.

    (Also this goes on for more then this one topic ;P)

    C) Really in my eyes is in a league of its own and it up for you all to decide on that.

  33. ?

    We are everything
    We are eternal
    We are cursed to live forever.
    We are blessed to live forever.
    We are creating infinity.
    We have tried so hard to cease this endless paradox that’s known as life, but it will not stop. It can not be stopped.
    Experiencing is our purpose.
    After creation, comes destruction. After destruction, comes creation. After love comes hate, after hate comes love.

    We are one.

    /Cogito Ergo Nom

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