Atheist need faith to disbelieve?
I came across an article over the weekend which talks about how christians claim that atheists must have as much faith in the big bang theory as creationist do in an omnipotent creator. The following is my reaction to that claim.
Being an atheist only implies that one does not believe in the existence of a supernatural god. Atheism does not imply a belief, it implies a disbelief. One can be an atheist without having to believe in the big bang theory, or any other theory for that matter. So to argue that atheism requires faith because atheists believe in the big bang theory is illogical.
If a creationist wanted to argue about someone needing faith to believe in the bang theory, then the argument should go towards all of those who believe in the big bang theory, not necessary atheists. To imply that by being an atheist also requires holding a belief in the big bang theory, is simply false. Perhaps many atheist do believe in the big bang theory, but it is not a requirement to be an atheist, nor is it exclusive to atheists.
What I think creationists really want to argue is that it requires faith to be an atheist, or in other words, faith not to believe in god. Creationist clearly make this argument because their own beliefs deeply depend on faith so much that they try to justify their faith by saying that those who are in opposition to their beliefs also have faith, and therefore are equal in this respect. This too is false, as faith only applies to belief, not disbelief.
I am not surprised that creationists would make such claims as saying that atheist need faith to not believe, for the simple reason that creationists have already exposed their lack of logic in arguments where they attempt to defend their reasoning as to why they believe in god, so it would be expected to see the same lack of logic applied elsewhere. This is not saying that all creationist are unintelligent and completely lack reason and logic, as on some issues they probably do apply a level of these traits. However, I think on the topic of the existence of god, they allow their personal desires, preferences, and need for comfort to take precedence over reason and logic. Doing such, allowing our personal preferences and desires to dictate what we believe rather then evidence could be quite polluting and dangerous to our lifestyle, view, and understanding of the world. I will get into this topic in a later post.
17. January 2008 um 03:20
Alright, to start off, yes, I am a creationist. You have a well-written article, boy, but it needs some improvements. However, I shall not assist you with those, as I am of the opposing side. ;)
The main part I want to debate about is regarding your comment: “This too is false, as faith only applies to belief, not disbelief.” Wow. And you thought creationists were illogical.
Faith only applies to belief? Hmmm, how about, “You have to believe that you don’t believe, and therefore you ultimately believe everything.” Sounds like something you wrote, hehe. Of course, that is not absolutely correct either. Since definitions are not relative to opinion (meaning that no matter which side you are on or what you believe, the definition will be the same) I shall use one here. The definition of “faith” is: “To have confidence in a person or thing.” True Christians’ (or “creationists’”) beliefs are founded on faith because we have confidence in God, a supernatural person. We have confidence that His son died to pay for our sins (more in a minute). Atheists (whether theory believing or just plain disbelieving) have confidence in the fact that nothing is true. Or, in other and more specific words, that creationism is not true.
Now that that is settled (though it won’t be for long, I’m sure) let me share something with you. Let’s just say that you asked a Muslim why he’s going to paradise. He’d probably say something like, “Well, I pray five times a day, I read my Koran, and believe in Allah.” But what about Christians? Suppose the same question was asked. You’d say, “Mr. Christian, why do you believe that you are going to heaven?” “I am a downright sinner. I have spit in God’s face, turned my back on him time after time, and have finally ended up in his arms.” Oh, but these are reasons why Christians shouldn’t go to heaven, yes? Well it would be so, if it were not for grace. Grace is what sets us free from the bonds of sin. Romans 3:23-24 says,
“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Christianity is the only “religion” that teaches that we can be saved not through works, but through the love of Jesus Christ. Constantly people are tied down from anxieties and worries, and with nothing to live for - no purpose. When people yearn for something, when they long to have it, it is because they have a receptor made for it. You do not thirst for water you cannot drink, neither do you hunger for food you cannot eat. In the same way you do not hunger for perfect love you cannot have, and you cannot thirst for a relief that isn’t there. The only problem is that you are stuck in the physical aspect. Searching for spiritual qualities in a physical world is not going to help. This world is only a crossroad, a short period within eternity that will decide where you go. This is it–Heaven or Hell. God gave you free will. Why would I be so concerned with your salvation if I have no reason to? I know what I am talking about. I love your souls, all you. I don’t want you to die. And remember, opinion does not change fact. The fact is that Hell is real, and that we are all bound for it. But another fact is that Jesus Christ took our punishment, because he loves us all so much. So now it is by Jesus through whom we are saved, and in whom we trust. But just because Jesus is there does not mean hard times will come. In fact the Bible says clearly that they will come. One thing I do assure you though, it will change your life.
I just honestly want to cry for you all.
You are in my prayers,
Patrick
P.S. It’s bedtime for me and that might not have been too clear. If you want it put clearly and in better words, go to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8
17. January 2008 um 08:50
Patrick McMullen said: “The main part I want to debate about is regarding your comment: “This too is false, as faith only applies to belief, not disbelief.” Wow. And you thought creationists were illogical. Faith only applies to belief? Hmmm, how about, “You have to believe that you don’t believe, and therefore you ultimately believe everything.””
What? One doesn’t have to necessarily believe that they don’t believe. One can “know” they don’t believe.
Patrick McMullen said: “and therefore you ultimately believe everything.”
Ooh, you shot yourself in the foot with this. And that my friend, is an example of a creationists illogic. If that is true, then you must ultimately believe that there is no god. You did also say in reference to this that this “is not absolutely correct either.” Then why bother posting it in support of your argument if it is not true? Do you post a lot of stuff that is not correct in support of your argument?
Patrick McMullen said: “The definition of “faith” is: “To have confidence in a person or thing.””
Then why don’t you just call it “confidence?” Because you conveniently left out the biggest part of faith! That is, it is to believe in something without proof.
Patrick McMullen said: “True Christians’ (or “creationists’”) beliefs are founded on faith because we have confidence in God, a supernatural person.”
The god you believe in is a supernatural “person?” A supernatural human being? You are digging your hole deeper.
Patrick McMullen said: You do not thirst for water you cannot drink, neither do you hunger for food you cannot eat.”
Children and adults alike in poor countries that do not have food and water definitely will argue with you on this. As they thirst for water they cannot drink, and hunger for food that they cannot eat. They thirst and hunger for these things without these things being there.
Thanks for stopping by Patrick.
Travis Morgan’s last blog post..It’s always your turn
17. January 2008 um 10:54
Travis Morgan said: What? One doesn’t have to necessarily believe that they don’t believe. One can “know” they don’t believe.
First of all, you’re missing the point. My statement was not “in support of” my argument, but rather in nonsupport of yours. It’s called a “counter example”. Context matters. Secondly, go look up “know” and “believe”.
Travis Morgan said: Then why don’t you just call it “confidence?” Because you conveniently left out the biggest part of faith! That is, it is to believe in something without proof.
Boy, for someone who doesn’t have faith, you sure know what it means. I am sorry for the apparently “convenient” lack of definition. File a complaint with the dictionary. So faith is to believe is something without proof? Prove that God doesn’t exist! You believe that God is not real without proof. Boy, you just shot your own foot.
Travis Morgan said: The god you believe in is a supernatural “person?” A supernatural human being?
Are you implying that “person” and “human being” are the same? Because first of all, they are not. Second of all, you love taking things out of context. “Person” was suggesting “being”. I only said “supernatural person” because “supernatural being” sounded more like a preacher preaching to Christians who know a lot more about terms such as that than non-Christians do. I was only considering my audience, something I will be less cautious of in the future, now that I know who my audience is.
Travis Morgan said: Children and adults alike in poor countries that do not have food and water definitely will argue with you on this.
I don’t blame you for taking this SO far out of context, as really this is the only way the argument can keep getting interesting. The whole point of my saying that people do not thirst for water than isn’t there etc. was to point out that there is a solution. For every natural hunger there is a natural appeasement. For every supernatural thirst there is a supernatural quench. That starving man may not have food to eat, BUT THERE IS FOOD. What do you eat every day? Food. That man hungers for something that is out there, whether he has it or not. By apparently contradiction me in saying, “They thirst and hunger for these things without these things being there,” you back up my argument. That statement you made is directed at the natural world, yes? You hunger and thirst for a God who is not in your life, who does not have a personal relationship with you for lack of participation on your part. This does not mean God is not out there. Just as the starving man hungers for food that is not within his grasp and yet food is still out there.
John 6:33 says, “For the bread of God is he (Jesus) who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
17. January 2008 um 11:39
Patrick McMullen said: “Secondly, go look up “know” and “believe”.
I already “know” the difference. Do you?
Patrick McMullen said: “Boy, for someone who doesn’t have faith, you sure know what it means. I am sorry for the apparently “convenient” lack of definition. File a complaint with the dictionary. So faith is to believe is something without proof?”
Come on, I would expect someone who believes in a religion that values faith so much to at least have a good understanding of what faith means without having to refer to a dictionary all the time.
Patrick McMullen said: “Prove that God doesn’t exist! You believe that God is not real without proof. Boy, you just shot your own foot.”
The burden of proof lies on the one who holds the belief, but I will honor your request with an analogy. I believe that god is not real without proof just as I believe that fairies, goblins, the boogeyman, elves, and the tooth fairy are not real without proof. You cannot prove to me that there is not an invisible, pink, magical, unicorn in my garage can you? Does that mean that you should believe their is one in my garage? Of course not!
Patrick McMullen said: “Person” was suggesting “being”.
Are you suggesting that every “being” is a “person?”
Patrick McMullen said: “For every supernatural thirst there is a supernatural quench.”
Yes, one makes it up. There are men who create scifi for those who want to watch and read about scifi. They may even say that they “experienced” scifi. Man just as easily made up a supernatural god idea to satisfy mans supernatural thirst.
I appreciate your interaction Patrick.